I enjoy reading about Paradox games more than I enjoy playing them. I want to get into them but the learning curve is brutal. Nevertheless, am looking forward to the HoI4 review!
This is an interesting review, but did you ever play Vicky 2?
My main Paradox game -- and most played game on Steam -- was CK2, followed by EU4.
I don't think I have the stomach to invest in another Paradox DLC train. I own all of the non-cosmetic DLC for CK2, but with EU4 I stopped around 2018-2019 and continue to occasionally play a version of the game that dates back to that period.
I do own Vicky 2, along with the expansions for it. But I didn't enjoy it. I had mixed experiences with the HOI games (having played 2-4) but ultimately have big problems with their design. I think my problem with all of these games is that they are overly meticulous simulations that do not simulate reality.
With HOI, the problem is very abundantly clear. You have this IMMENSELY detailed combat model, which nonetheless is optimally exploited with "gamey" strategies. I remember at one point in one of the HOI games, there was this incredibly complex model for naval combat, and yet the optimal strategy was to build nothing but submarines. So all of this complexity was in service of nothing. They might as well have just abstracted your fleets into a single "force" value, and not modeled out individual ships, and they would have had a better design.
In HOI4, you are often asked to make incredibly petty decisions. Should I increase the air speed of my second-gen tactical bomber by +5%, or its "agility"? I HATE being asked this question, it reduces the fun of the entire game for me. As a purely gamey experience, I don't want to know how air combat is modeled well enough to know which is better. And as a matter of historical simulation: no one was asked this question in real life! At least not without being provided with a ton of context about what these different priorities mean, and what feedback from pilots in the field is telling us.
I don't know why my aircraft can't just have a single "quality" score.
It's been longer since I played Vicky 2, but I remember it also bombarded me with inconsequential questions. Or maybe "inconsequential" is the wrong word: more like questions that, after answering them dozens or even hundreds of times, eventually maybe amounted to something, I guess, but I was never quite sure what.
I did play Vicky 2 but it's been a good few years now and I didn't play it as extensively as the others in the series; about 180 hours. CK2 was also my most-played until Hearts of Iron 4.
Believe me, I completely get that feeling. As awesome as Europa Universalis V looks I'll be waiting a good week after launch to see what people think because waiting almost 3 years for Victoria 3 to get good has been a bad joke.
I will say that Victoria 3 feels very different from 2, it's far different than say, CK2 versus CK3. Paradox games definitely have issues with not reflecting reality too. I've been working on a HOI4 review for about a month now and that is one of my key complaints with the game, the fact that years of power-creep and changing priorities have turned a WW2 strategy game into 1940's LARP-fest.
Yep, navy is still like that now! Another issue is that close air support is overpowered and that maybe 1/3rd of the game's units aren't worth building; armoured cars for example: a staple of WW2 battlefields, are utterly pointless in that game.
I don't want to spill all my thoughts on HOI4 here but I will say your issues with the games are absolutely discussed in the community and brought up often. There is way too much bloat, too much stuff that just doesn't mean anything.
That's all interesting. I'll plan to launch more into an HOI4 discussion in that write-up, because I have much stronger thoughts there than with Victoria. I don't really have a game that scratches the itch of what I want in a WW2 strategy game, which I suppose is an itch I want scratched a lot more than I want a better grand strategy game covering 1836-1936.
I'll admit that I haven't engaged much with the Paradox community, and I don't know anyone IRL who's a big fan of their games, so my thoughts on these games have mostly been stewing inside my own head, for years. My surface-level read is that I haven't heard other people complain about the things in HOI that drive me nuts, so I thought it was just me.
There was a time from about 2014-2020 where Paradox's reputation was close to spotless and the whole community loved what they put out but from 2020-2022 the dissatisfying launch of CK3 and Victoria 3, the unceremonious abandoning of Imperator: Rome and the disastrous launch of the Leviathan expansion for EU4 (which became the worst reviewed item on Steam) has badly mangled their reputation among the community. They have been slowly working to get things back on track but they are stumbling into controversies regularly now, even with HOI4: their golden goose. The latest DLC for that game was absolute garbage.
There are still ways to play HOI4 accurately I will say but they each have their own trade-offs and limitations. The Black Ice mod (if you're into modding) is pretty much historical only but it also badly bloats the industry, tech and politics systems. I'll leave it there but look forward to your comments when that HOI4 review sees the light of day!
Sphere of Influence and Charters of Commerce are must have.
Colossus of the South is nice but not essential. (It is centred around Brazil with a bit of flavour for the rest of South America too: a pretty turbulent region in this time period)
Pivot of Empire and Voice of the People are almost useless unless you plan on playing either India or France regularly, or really care about historically accurate political agitators.
Edit: the launch of Pivot of Empire was such a shit show and the content so dire that I didn't play the game for about 6 months after.
I enjoy reading about Paradox games more than I enjoy playing them. I want to get into them but the learning curve is brutal. Nevertheless, am looking forward to the HoI4 review!
Paradox are allergic to tutorials and the community seems to exclusively make 60 minute guides that talk at you without really teaching
This is an interesting review, but did you ever play Vicky 2?
My main Paradox game -- and most played game on Steam -- was CK2, followed by EU4.
I don't think I have the stomach to invest in another Paradox DLC train. I own all of the non-cosmetic DLC for CK2, but with EU4 I stopped around 2018-2019 and continue to occasionally play a version of the game that dates back to that period.
I do own Vicky 2, along with the expansions for it. But I didn't enjoy it. I had mixed experiences with the HOI games (having played 2-4) but ultimately have big problems with their design. I think my problem with all of these games is that they are overly meticulous simulations that do not simulate reality.
With HOI, the problem is very abundantly clear. You have this IMMENSELY detailed combat model, which nonetheless is optimally exploited with "gamey" strategies. I remember at one point in one of the HOI games, there was this incredibly complex model for naval combat, and yet the optimal strategy was to build nothing but submarines. So all of this complexity was in service of nothing. They might as well have just abstracted your fleets into a single "force" value, and not modeled out individual ships, and they would have had a better design.
In HOI4, you are often asked to make incredibly petty decisions. Should I increase the air speed of my second-gen tactical bomber by +5%, or its "agility"? I HATE being asked this question, it reduces the fun of the entire game for me. As a purely gamey experience, I don't want to know how air combat is modeled well enough to know which is better. And as a matter of historical simulation: no one was asked this question in real life! At least not without being provided with a ton of context about what these different priorities mean, and what feedback from pilots in the field is telling us.
I don't know why my aircraft can't just have a single "quality" score.
It's been longer since I played Vicky 2, but I remember it also bombarded me with inconsequential questions. Or maybe "inconsequential" is the wrong word: more like questions that, after answering them dozens or even hundreds of times, eventually maybe amounted to something, I guess, but I was never quite sure what.
I did play Vicky 2 but it's been a good few years now and I didn't play it as extensively as the others in the series; about 180 hours. CK2 was also my most-played until Hearts of Iron 4.
Believe me, I completely get that feeling. As awesome as Europa Universalis V looks I'll be waiting a good week after launch to see what people think because waiting almost 3 years for Victoria 3 to get good has been a bad joke.
I will say that Victoria 3 feels very different from 2, it's far different than say, CK2 versus CK3. Paradox games definitely have issues with not reflecting reality too. I've been working on a HOI4 review for about a month now and that is one of my key complaints with the game, the fact that years of power-creep and changing priorities have turned a WW2 strategy game into 1940's LARP-fest.
Yep, navy is still like that now! Another issue is that close air support is overpowered and that maybe 1/3rd of the game's units aren't worth building; armoured cars for example: a staple of WW2 battlefields, are utterly pointless in that game.
I don't want to spill all my thoughts on HOI4 here but I will say your issues with the games are absolutely discussed in the community and brought up often. There is way too much bloat, too much stuff that just doesn't mean anything.
That's all interesting. I'll plan to launch more into an HOI4 discussion in that write-up, because I have much stronger thoughts there than with Victoria. I don't really have a game that scratches the itch of what I want in a WW2 strategy game, which I suppose is an itch I want scratched a lot more than I want a better grand strategy game covering 1836-1936.
I'll admit that I haven't engaged much with the Paradox community, and I don't know anyone IRL who's a big fan of their games, so my thoughts on these games have mostly been stewing inside my own head, for years. My surface-level read is that I haven't heard other people complain about the things in HOI that drive me nuts, so I thought it was just me.
There was a time from about 2014-2020 where Paradox's reputation was close to spotless and the whole community loved what they put out but from 2020-2022 the dissatisfying launch of CK3 and Victoria 3, the unceremonious abandoning of Imperator: Rome and the disastrous launch of the Leviathan expansion for EU4 (which became the worst reviewed item on Steam) has badly mangled their reputation among the community. They have been slowly working to get things back on track but they are stumbling into controversies regularly now, even with HOI4: their golden goose. The latest DLC for that game was absolute garbage.
There are still ways to play HOI4 accurately I will say but they each have their own trade-offs and limitations. The Black Ice mod (if you're into modding) is pretty much historical only but it also badly bloats the industry, tech and politics systems. I'll leave it there but look forward to your comments when that HOI4 review sees the light of day!
Played a ton of EU3/4 and CK2 - what's the "must have" list of DLC for V3?
Sphere of Influence and Charters of Commerce are must have.
Colossus of the South is nice but not essential. (It is centred around Brazil with a bit of flavour for the rest of South America too: a pretty turbulent region in this time period)
Pivot of Empire and Voice of the People are almost useless unless you plan on playing either India or France regularly, or really care about historically accurate political agitators.
Edit: the launch of Pivot of Empire was such a shit show and the content so dire that I didn't play the game for about 6 months after.
Thanks! It's been sitting on my wishlist for a long, long time.
No worries! I'd say it's finally worth playing now, with those DLC at least.
That’s always the most important piece of information for a paradox game :)
Great write up, enjoyed reading this