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HBI's avatar

It's hard to enjoy these games once you break them apart and figure out how they play. They have zero simulation value. You can make a fairly good argument that "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by Prados from the 1970s was a pretty damn good simulation of WWII in Europe, with some indications as to what real impact variant events (Turkey joins the war, etc) might have had. HOI in any form isn't going to give you that.

I suppose it's all based on what you want. I happen to like simulations.

Spouting Thomas's avatar

Been looking forward to this one, and it didn’t disappoint!

I already voiced some of my gripes in another discussion, and I can see where you share them. I hate the combat model and the trap options. The idea that all this complexity ultimately serves to pursue gamey strategies. HOI is way worse than CK and EU to me because the combat model is front and center. In those other games, victory mainly comes down to numbers and a few simple factors like leadership and tech.

Submarines were OP in Darkest Hour (HOI2 fork), and however many years later, they’re OP here too. At what point do they decide to just make subs a tool for commerce raiding?

I grew up playing Third Reich and later Adv. Third Reich with my dad, which are classic Avalon Hill board games. They had lots of hard rules to make sure the war followed a historic course. Adv. Third Reich mainly added a diplomacy system to allow some ahistoric but plausible things to happen.

It abstracted a lot of things that HOI4 models out in exquisite detail. E.g., fleets and air units just have a number. I’m sending 3 points of air support to back up this ground offensive. How many aircraft is that? How good are they? 3 points worth, that’s how much.

And what’s crazy is it modeled some things you’re saying HOI4 doesn’t. E.g. German control of Norway makes it easier to intercept Murmansk convoys. The risk of losing access to Swedish ore was modeled in the diplomacy of Adv. Third Reich.

The other thing that kills me in HOI4 is the lack of feedback. In Third Reich, you probably know TOO well why you lost a battle. There’s no fog of war. The probabilities are all in front of you. It’s always some obvious combination of bad dice rolls and insufficient force.

But in HOI4, which I played for maybe 100-200 hours (mainly in its first 2 years post-release), I never once knew why anything did or didn’t go my way. Did that enemy unit collapse mainly because I upgraded my artillery, because of some doctrine I pursued, my air support, or one of 1000 other things? How much did each of those help?

In Third Reich, I always knew how much my 3 points of air support helped: 3 points worth.

I know that HOI5 won’t dial up the abstraction to that level, but feedback is one of the biggest things I would wish for, that somehow respects the fog of war while still including intelligent analysis. I wonder if an LLM could be implemented to help assess things.

Just on history, one other thing I’ll touch on: the RAF really wasn’t that outnumbered (in terms of fighters at least) in the Battle of Britain. Especially by August 1940. It was outproducing the Germans in terms of fighters. I know you’re British and maybe there’s a British myth around playing up the numerical disadvantage.

The British also THOUGHT they were vastly outnumbered at the time; the size of the Luftwaffe was vastly overestimated following the collapse of France.

I recommend 3 books on the economics of WW2:

Why the Allies Won, by Overy

Wages of Destruction, by Tooze

How the War Was Won, by O’Brien

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